Cactus to Clouds / Skyline Trail, Palm Springs, CA

[Sean Clancy]

I am hi-jacking Sean's post in order to put a summary of the Mt San Jacinto FKTs here at the top of the thread. His original post is preserved below. - PB

Brett Maune has the Skyline Trail FKT, 2h16m39s to the sign at Grubb's Notch, 2h21m18s to the tramway, December 13, 2012.
Brett Maune also has C2C2C FKT, 6h16m54s, with an ascent of 3h39m54s, on May 21, 2014.

Here's what Wikipedia says about San Jacinto Peak:

"San Jacinto Peak 10,834 feet (3,302 m) is the highest peak of the San Jacinto Mountains, and of Riverside County, California. It lies within Mount San Jacinto State Park. Naturalist John Muir wrote of San Jacinto Peak, 'The view from San Jacinto is the most sublime spectable to be found anywhere on earth!'

San Jacinto Peak is one of the most topographically prominent peaks in the United States. It is ranked sixth among peaks of the 48 contiguous states."

San Jacinto is just outside of Palm Springs. Two basic challenges have emerged: the "Cactus to Clouds" (C2C, or round trip C2C2C) route, beginning at the Palm Springs Desert Museum and ascending 10,400 feet in 17.5 miles to the summit; and the Skyline Trail, which ascends from the Museum to the top of the Palm Springs Aerial Tramway, at 8,516 feet on San Jacinto. Most people do the Skyline Trail one-way, taking the tram back down.

Here's a summary of what we know about the C2C & C2C2C FKTs:

Jeff List did the C2C2C in 11h14m on Nov. 25, 2008. His ascent time was 6h21m. He repeated the route on Nov. 25, 2009, in 10h33m, with an ascent time of 6h5m. List has some excellent info and links regarding the C2C, plus splits on his C2C2C runs in 2008 and 2009 here.

Robert Hunt reports doing the C2C2C in 9h10m3s, with an ascent time of 4h57m15s on Oct. 20, 2013. Details of his trip are below.

Trevor Garner did the C2C2C on Dec. 14, 2013, in 8h19m49s, with an ascent time of 4h45m. His splits are reported below.

Brett Maune has set the current C2C2C FKT on May 21, 2014, reaching the summit in 3h39m54s and doing the round-trip in 6h16m54s, as reported below.

Here's a summary of what we know about the Skyline Trail FKTs:

Brett Maune posted briefly about previous Skyline Trail FKTs, but the information was sketchy until he ran the route in 2h28m0s on Dec. 25, 2011, as reported below. Maune established sign at Grubbs Notch as the endpoint of the run, but also continued to the "door at the top of the [tramway] stairs by thermometer" in 2h32m55s.

On Dec. 9, 2012, Nick Hollon made an attempt on the FKT, but came up short, 2h40m0s to Grubb's Notch and 2h44m40s to the tram station.

Maune went back for another attempt on Dec. 13, 2012, and set what appears to be the FKT of 2h16m39s at Grubb's Notch, 2h21m18s to the tram station. Maune discusses below some of the issues with regard to the route.

Andrew Fast gave a good shot at the Skyline FKT on Feb. 26, 2014, but just missed the FKT. His times were 2h21m to Grubb's Nothc, 2h26m to the tram station. This is reported below and in his blog.

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Here's Sean's original post:

Palm Springs...
Cactus to Clouds/Skyline Trail...

Does anyone have FKT for:
library to summit?
library to the bench (top of trail before the tram area)

I have heard of someone going 2:30s...a friend who frequently wins
ultras and trail marathons did 3:30 not too far back without pushing too hard.

Anyone know?

Lastly, I shudder to think but FKT for Cactus to Clouds and 10,000' back down to town?

[Jeff List]

On November 25 2008, I did the full Cactus to Clouds round trip in 11:14, self-supported, starting at the trailhead in the parking lot of the Palm Springs Desert Museum.

I don't know if this is the FKT for the C2C2C, but I scoured the internet and found no reports of any round-trips.

A brief report, and some info on the route (elevation profile, Google Earth .kmz, and perspective view) can be found at:

sites.google.com/site/jeffstrailroutes/Home/mt--san-jacinto

I will be attempting it again on November 25, 2009, if anyone wants to join me.

[Sean Clancy]

I have heard that the FKT from Museum to Tram is 2hrs 30ish. Tram to Summit is not exactly fast...

Any idea what your museum to tram and tram to summit splits were? I can't make the 25th but there will be a group going that same day that includes some fast ultrarunner types from OC. As far as I know they are just going up to the tram and that's it...might be good for pacing for you though.

[Sean Clancy]

OK, nevermind, saw your link. Awesome!
I'm not as worried about the climbing as the 11,000' straight downhill over 16 miles!

[Jeff List]

Yeah, it took me two weeks to get over a pulled shin muscle after that huge downhill last year. Guess that's why it's not done much.

Can you provide some contact info for the OC ultrarunners going up on the 25th? I can be reached at jlist1 aat yahoo dawt com
thanks.

[Jeff List]

On November 25, 2009, I did my second Mt. San Jacinto summit via the Cactus to Clouds route, and back the same way (C2C2C), in 10:33. I added a brief report was to my Mt. San Jacinto info site:
sites.google.com/site/jeffstrailroutes/Home/mt--san-jacinto

[Russ McBride]

I did 3:07 from the Museum trailhead to the Bench (3:12 'till I tagged the door at the top of the concrete walkway up to the tram station). This was Thanksgiving '09. If I recall correctly, I was at 2:15 at flat rock and was expecting an easy sub-3hr time to the bench but went out of the gate too hard and faded. I head a rumor of a sub 3hr time. If you're Mr. or Ms. sub-3-hr, let's hear about it!

[Brett Maune]

I have had the Skyline FKT in the back of mind for many years but only recently have I been able to acquire the degree of fitness required for a realistic attempt. Regarding what the record actually is/was(?) there are rumors that someone did it in 2:30s (as mentioned above) but I haven’t been able to confirm it. I recently asked for information on the San Jacinto message board and someone there (Perry) claimed to have done it in ~2:45 to Grubbs Notch and 2:48:44 to the back patio of the tram. My goal was to hopefully make it to the tram in under 2:30 so as to beat the most liberal interpretation of the rumored ‘2:30s time’. Based on my trip up Iron Mountain last week I thought I had a decent chance of doing this but unfortunately did not quite achieve this, but came close.

Given this was a record attempt I wanted to go as light and fast as possible and so desperately wanted to avoid having a pack despite the winter conditions. To achieve this I took the absolute minimal gear required for the ascent. I had one handheld bottle for water and carried microspikes in the other hand. Gloves were strapped to my watch. My pockets contained gel. I wore a t-shirt and shorts with arms and legs. The lack of additional gear was not just to minimize ascent time but also served to create a more memorable run. As I serendipitously discovered last week on Iron, the reduction of gear for winter ascents decreases the margin of error but in turn heightens the sensory experience.

I got a late start and began at 7:25 AM, which created warmer than expected conditions. Soon my shirt became soaked with sweat and I was a little concerned about not having enough water but knew the temperature would rapidly drop as I ascended. In the end I had enough water. At 0:32 I reached the first of two ‘rescue stations’. I did not see these the last time I did the hike (2009). They are a nice addition given the unfortunate incidents that occur during hot weather.

I reached 4300 ft (marked with rocks) in 1:03 and was happy with my ascent rate of about 3600 ft/hr. At that rate I had a comfortable margin for beating 2:30 and thought I could reach Flat Rock in the mid 1:30s. That is, until the trail started to level off going towards Flat Rock. I do not like flat trails when doing timed ascents. I like to analyze runs in terms of ascent rates and use this metric to compare different runs and to project finishing times. If one focuses on ascent rates then one does not like low gradient trail sections or traverses since this lowers the average ascent rate for the run and increases the finishing time relative to one’s projections. The opposite is true if one instead analyzes runs based on speed. In any case, I had forgotten how flat the trail is as it approaches Flat Rock and I was upset as the minutes ticked by with little elevation gain. I estimated I needed to reach Flat Rock somewhere around 1:40-1:45 in order to break 2:30 and my imagined time buffer decreased with each horizontal step. After what seemed like an eternity, I finally reached Flat Rock in 1:42 and knew I had little time to spare.

Shortly thereafter the trail became icy and I was glad to have to put on the microspikes. By that point, my hand was quite tired of carrying them. I had originally planned to also put on my gloves at this point but decided against it since I would be in the sun for a while longer and the air was still warm. I would later regret this.

During the steep ascent I occupied myself by trying to estimate the times at the upcoming landmarks I needed to hit to be on pace for a sub 2:30 finish. Eventually I got to the prominent rock outcropping and later the beginning of the traverse with what I conservatively thought was a couple minute buffer. I just needed a solid finish for the final thousand foot ascent and I was confident I would make it. Then the traverse started, and it sucked. It sucked bad. Don’t get me wrong, given the circumstances the snow conditions were about as good as could be expected. The footprints left by previous hikers were crucial—any record attempt would have been clearly impossible without them! I knew I was going to have to endure snow, but snow costs minutes. This was a record attempt, and I didn’t have many minutes to spare.

I could not run on the traverse. Whenever I tried I broke through the compacted footprints and slid down the slope. This wasted a tremendous amount of energy and time but there was nothing I could do about it. I hiked as fast and as gingerly as I could with occasional attempts at running, which usually failed. I felt the minutes slipping away as the never-ending traverse continued. My hands were numb from touching the snow from the frequent slips but I could not spare any time to put on the gloves. Eventually I got to the end of the traverse and started the final ascent. I knew reaching the tram in under 2:30 was now out of the question but at all cost I still wanted to reach Grubbs Notch before 2:30. So I dug deep and began a rapid unsustainable ascent with the hope that I could just hang on long enough to reach the top. I kept climbing and the clock kept ticking down…8…7…no sign of the top…6…come on where is it!...5…Is that it? Is it leveling off up there?...4…I think I see a sign!...3…2…Done! Grubbs Notch in ~2:28:00. I then ran towards the tram as fast as I could but could only muster a slow jog at first until I recovered somewhat. I got to the ramps and I was shocked how packed they were with people on Christmas. I had to alternate between running and power hiking a few times due to the exhaustion as well as the crowds. I reached the topmost door near the thermometer at 2:32:55.

Here are the splits:
Started from the museum parking lot at 7:25:00AM
0:12 Picnic tables
0:21 Long Valley sign
0:32 First rescue station
1:03 4300 ft elevation (marked with rocks)
1:30 Second rescue station
1:42 Flat Rock
2:05 Rock outcropping
2:09 Beginning of traverse
2:28:00Sign at Grubbs Notch
2:32:55Door at top of stairs by thermometer

Note, I had originally intended to mark the time at Grubbs Notch at the two boulders that form a kind of finish line. This is apparently what people tend to use, but with the snow I wasn’t sure where they were. So in the end I decided to use my time at the sign which I knew to within a few seconds (2:28:00 plus/minus about 2 seconds).

[Brett Maune]

I believe the landmark on the second split (Long Valley sign) is wrong. Based on a google map survey I believe the landmark should be the point when the trail regains the ridge and one can see houses to the north. I think this is around 1850 ft elevation.

[bivouac]

Brett, did you post this on the San Jacinto Message board?

[Brett]

There was a thread on the San Jacinto message board that was started soon after the run.

[Peter Bakwin]

That thread Brett mentioned is here:
mtsanjacinto.info/viewtopic.php?t=3351

[Nickademus Hollon]

Record Attempt this Saturday (12-08-2012)

Conditions look great, very little to absolutely no snow on the trail at the moment. Current weather for Saturday is projected to be 55 degrees at the Tram Station and a cool 77 degrees in Palm Springs. I've scoped out the trail twice before (very slowly at around 4hrs and 30mins to the ascent...once back in august which was a horrible idea...).

I've ran with Brett at Barkley before, and no doubt about it he is a phenomenal athlete so attempting his record should be pretty fun. I've studied his record and done some average's. He ascended at a rate between 12:40's and 13:20's min/ mile on the way up took down about 3,226ft per hour...which is pretty killer.

I've been training nothing but elevation gain since August now for the HURT 100 in Hawaii and want to use this ascent record attempt as a litmus test for my training. Weekly mileage for the last three months has been about 60-70 miles with 15,000-20,000ft of gain per week. At a hard effort I can cover about 3,500ft of gain in 45mins on non-technical terrain, so we'll see what I can tear up here.

Plans are as follows:
-Start the run at roughly 6:30am from the Museum
-11-13 min/ miles up until about mile 4 where the ascent starts to undulate with that downhill/ flat terrain Brett described in his report
-Miles 5-6 are that weird up/ down/ flat stuff, so hopefully I can move at a 8-9min/ mile
-Miles 6-11 get wicked steep, so I really want to aim at conserving and hit it hard on that last chunk, there is currently no snow on the trail according to the posts/ weather conditions I've read so things should be good.
-Hoping to hit Grubs Notch in ~2:20'ish and the Tram station in under 2:30

What I'll be carrying:
-Fanny Pack
-Cell phone
-$13.00
-2x water bottle 1 with 400cal. Carbo Pro mix
-2x Gu (100cal)
-6x Salt Pills
-iPod
-basic t-shirt, shorts
-Inov8 roclite's (shoes)

Should be a fun time! I have a slight desire to see if I can descend from the Tram station to the Museum in under 1:30...but that just kinda sounds bad for my knee's...

-Nick

[ultrademus]

Yesterday's conditions were perfect! My stamina..we'll it's nice to say that mountain no matter who you are Mt. San Jacinto always seems to serve up a nice big piece of humble pie...I didn't manage to bag Brett's record but I learned that I can run 10 out of the 11 miles up the mountain and that I am in good shape for the HURT 100. Here are my splits:

Started at 7:23am (ironically)
Picnic Benches: 00:11:40
Long Valley Sign: 00:15:00
First Rescue Station: 00:32:35
Second Rescue Station: 1:41:14
Tuna Can/ Flat Rock: 1:52:10
...then I stopped running (mistake) and slowly shuffled up this steep section...
Coffman's Crag (huge boulder before 31 switchbacks of doom): 2:30:05
Grubb's Notch: 2:40:00
Tram Station (top of first floor): 2:44:40

I followed the most used trail the entire way up, I didn't want to risk cutting any switchbacks or taking any shortcuts for fear of getting lost.

And thanks to everyone out on the trail that day for being kind and letting me by! There was a surprising amount of people hiking up, which again made it nice for me because I knew I was on the main trail.

[Brett Maune]

Nick’s recent attempt raised the issue—which is surfacing at increasing frequencies—of fkt protocol regarding whether a trail should be strictly followed or not. There does not appear to be (and likely will never be) consensus on this issue and it is certainly not going to get resolved here. One idea floating around is that people follow the precedent established by the earliest recognized fkt. For Skyline I don’t know how much is really known about the earlier times. The trail has also changed a lot in recent years anyway so I don’t know how relevant the previous runs would be for establishing a precedent. With that in mind the following reflects my current thinking on the matter.

What I did (as best as can be described): I did not take the large number of small switchback shortcuts. I did take two large “established” (i.e. there are paths there) shortcuts. I think they are at ~4000+-1000 ft elevation. One is going straight up a gully when the trail goes right. That’s the big one. The other heads up and left when the trail goes right and is located at a saddle I believe. In between these two extremes gets messy. There are many places where it is now hard to tell where the real trail goes--this created much anxiety on my fkt attempts. For the intermediate shortcuts my guess is that I took several, but really it is impossible to know for sure.

What is the impact of all the shortcuts: I’ve seen estimates ranging from 5-10 min. I’ve also seen quasi lists of the known major shortcuts posted on the san jacinto forum. As far as I can tell I only took the two previously mentioned. Given the shortcuts I know I took and likely did take, I would be surprised if the total time savings exceeded 5 minutes.

Did the different routes affect Nick’s outcome: As far as I can tell from looking at his splits it did not, but I can’t be sure. There is an obvious 10-11 min difference between our times between the first and second rescue stations, with the other segments being similar. I find it inconceivable that shortcuts could be responsible for 10 min in a segment that takes ~1 hour. Playing devil’s advocate, however, if you assign that full 10 min time differential to shortcuts, then there is only a couple minute differential remaining which is unfortunately pretty close.

This leads us to the question of what do we do going forward? This situation is clearly not acceptable. It’s just wrong to have so much time and energy (physical and emotional) tied up in something like this and have a false or uncertain result based on route choice. A few minute penalty is a huge deal on a run that only takes ~150 total and I want to do what I can to fix this while encouraging runners to stay on the trail going forward. The Skyline Trail is a rapidly changing animal. I go up it about once a year and it seems different each time I go with new paths popping up everywhere in the lower elevations. I think it is hopeless to follow “the trail”. As mentioned above, there are many places where I don’t even know what the proper route is and there are places where I suspect the “shortcuts” have now become the dominant trail. Therefore my route suggestion for fkt attempts is for runners to simply try and follow the dominant trail—which sounds like basically what Nick did. Using this guideline, however, creates the problem in that runners would be penalized x minutes to break my time. This problem will eventually solve itself when someone goes under my time simply following the dominant trail but until that happens I don’t see a perfect solution here. One potential “fix” I am considering is to do both routes in close proximity/with comparable fitness to estimate the time penalty. I could wear a heart rate monitor and use the average bpm between the run segments to reduce systematic errors. I think the uncertainty in this would be less than a minute and would be dominated by the intrinsic error associated with inadvertently going the “wrong” way (I couldn’t go the same exact way twice on Skyline if I tried). Once the penalty is known then times between the routes could be compared very accurately and an fkt appropriately assigned. Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter. Of course people are free to do whatever they want but this is just my suggestion on how to handle this increasingly common dilemma—at least on Skyline. If anyone has any thoughts on this please contact me offline. I don’t know if this is the proper place for a thorough discussion of the topic, but Peter certainly would.