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Post by Howie Schwartz on Sept 3, 2014 18:37:50 GMT -5
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Post by Young Gun on Sept 3, 2014 21:00:44 GMT -5
Gonna take a whack at the unsupported JMT FKT starting tomorrow @ 9am from the Whitney Portal. SPOT updates here: bit.ly/jmbspot
-Young Gun
Edit: Jay appears to have bailed over Kearsarge Pass after a ~12hour break on Forester.
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Post by Hobbes on Sept 4, 2014 13:58:30 GMT -5
@hs says "Standards need to be set by consensus for the supported race."
I think most people instinctively understand and appreciate the challenge of simply hitting the trail by yourself. I'd be surprised if anyone really cares and/or values supported/accompanied efforts vs solo treks.
Anish, Brett & and now Handy Andy represent the gold standards; they are the ones who generate the silent awe. Anecdotally, marketers are constantly hunting for legitimacy, so the "tell" will be which ones are interviewed, get sponsored, and/or generate the most buzz.
As a point of reference, in surfing a few years ago, an initial push to surf ever larger waves resulted in the use of PWCs to get towed-into waves. That phase is now over, and is essentially non-existent from a media perspective. (Not to mention actually banned in places like Mavericks and Ghost Trees [Carmel].) The entire name of the game nowadays is to paddle into giant waves all by yourself with no assistance. This has resulted in a lot of design changes/advances in equipment, not just boards, but wetsuits, emergency flotation, etc.
Anyway, the point is, solo unsupported FKT will/has emerge(d) as the only real 'standard' in the market of public opinion, with or without formal definitions. As this method gains further interest, we should also see corresponding advances in techniques/equipment. For example, check out Andy's backpack designs - real-world torture tests that confirm/reject usefulness will be what drives this market.
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Post by Howie Schwartz on Sept 4, 2014 16:33:51 GMT -5
Handy Andy and now Young Gun! The next generation of speed demons is making a statement with the style they choose. As I said before, these records are going to be challenged more and more often and we should
Hobbes, I fully agree with you there. I believe also that unsupported, solo efforts will emerge as THE standard for FKT's on the JMT. Competitive ultra runners seem to be able to set the fastest pace by setting up ad hoc race courses in the wild. The sport of ultra distance running is bigger than fastpacking and the champions of that sport are more well known and sponsored. They seem to generate more media buzz for sure. The supported version of this race has been contrived to showcase the strengths of ultra distance runners and attract more attention, but it is flawed and poorly thought out as an open competition. I hope we see a shift analogous to the one you describe in the sport of big wave surfing to represent the ideal in this particular endeavor. Elite level ultra runners may actually prove the likely record setters of the future on the JMT. But many of them will be advised to increase their backcountry skill set to pull it off in pure and unsupported style, rather than using various installments of resources and personnel to diminish the course down to their own personal specifications.
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Post by Andrew Bentz on Sept 4, 2014 21:57:15 GMT -5
I just posted my trip report in the blog section on my website: www.palantepacks.com. Check it out and leave some comments if you have questions! |
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Post by Howie on Sept 5, 2014 14:17:10 GMT -5
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Post by Megan Armstrong on Sept 5, 2014 14:56:36 GMT -5
If my trip was supported, I would have at least carried half the amount of food I had and re-supplied at Red's Meadow. I think that still makes me self supported by the definitions discussed. I carried a tarp tent, sleeping bag, pad, clothes, bear can, food, and all necessary supplies. Everything I used, ate or needed was on my back. I even had my own separate map, I just happened to know the person behind me during my trip. I regret not seeing the "Read this first section" however that does not mean my trip was supported.
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Post by Young Gun on Sept 5, 2014 16:12:07 GMT -5
My attempt ended very, very early on, as one can probably tell from the SPOT track. Started at 9:15am, left Whitney at 12:27am, and as I was approaching Forrester Pass I was feeling inflammation in my right Achilles. I popped 2x200mg Ibuprofen, which isn't an unreasonable amount. Crested over Forrester at 6:15pm, right on time (9h), and I stopped to take a leak -- my urine was a deep brown-red. Felt like I was going to faint, maybe at the sight of the blood. Went for about another mile until I got to the next water/bivy spots, and I just crashed there. I was afraid of trying to push on, so I stopped. Oh well, always next year. And the next, and the next...
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Post by Howie Schwartz on Sept 5, 2014 17:04:58 GMT -5
Hi Megan. I don't want this to come off the wrong way. You are tough as steel and I want to applaud your performance on the JMT. Philosophically, I am trying to question the "Read This First" section here because there are some gray areas for sure. I do not know anything about your race other than your time and what you just wrote, but from that information it sounds like your JMT traverse should fall within the broad spectrum of "supported," if you were in fact accompanied. Other people that provide motivation, encouragement, margin of safety, additional equipment that they may carry, and pacing are providing a form of support, even if they don't provide support in other ways. If you were "self-supported" how did you do that? Did you arrange any advance caches or resupplies? You say, "Everything I used, ate or needed was on my back" so it makes it sound like you were almost entirely unsupported other than the fact that you had a companion for some of the journey. Seems to be supported, not self-supported, and awfully close to unsupported (but not quite). I'll leave it up to the FKT community at large to confirm whether or not you set any records. In any case, well done!
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Post by Peter Bakwin on Sept 5, 2014 17:32:56 GMT -5
What we label the trip (supported, self supported, unsupported) is less important than what you did and what you experienced. It does, however, make it tricky for me sometimes in terms of listing the FKTs at the top of the thread. This is one such case. So, at this point I'm listing both Megan's and MJ's times as "unsupported" with acknowledgement that Megan was also accompanied. The 80-90 hour trips notwithstanding, 6 days is FAST on the JMT! Megan, I hope you consider sharing your experience here.
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Post by Andy S. on Sept 6, 2014 21:52:05 GMT -5
Hi, just wanted to give a brief report on Megan Armstrong’s recent unsupported JMT finish. I was the hiking partner who accompanied her and thought I’d weigh in with my version of events. I hope the following will add some clarity to the debate begun last week by Mr. Schwartz.
It seems my presence has been the source of the added confusion/consternation about whether she was solo, supported, accompanied, etc. For those of you skeptical of or hostile toward unsupported claims when the individual is accompanied, I urge you to read on. While no doubt I am biased in favor of Megan’s claim, and as you know paper will take anything written on it, the following can serve as much as an exercise in logic as it is a true account of recent events.
From the get-go Megan and I decided to carry separate gear, food, personal items etc. This was primarily so we could have the ability to hike separately. As the trip grew near it became apparent that of the two of us, Megan was in significantly better shape and so needed to be 100% self-sufficient (in case we separate). Also, once we realized that she could potentially achieve the women’s FKT we believed her having all her own things meant she would be “self-supported.” We did not stop to consider “emotional support.”
We began the trip on Sat. 8/16 and reached the Whitney Summit at aprox. 6am from our bivouac at Guitar Lake. After signing the log-book and sending a signal from Megan’s SPOT we dashed down the trail. We made decent progress over the Kern Plateau but it became apparent by the afternoon that I was still not acclimated. Consequently, Megan was forced to wait around for me at the top of Forester for about 15-20 minutes. The rest of the day I proved an even greater liability as I became consumed by exhaustion. We struggled down to Vidette Meadow where I suggested she push on without me. However, because she was worried about my physical and mental state (I was struggling to speak in normal sentences), Megan resisted my suggestion to split up. We camped about a mile before the start of the climb toward Kearsage and Glen Passes.
The following day I felt a little better. We were able to get over Glen, Pinchot and then crested Mather at about 8pm. However, by this time I was feeling pretty dead again and Megan had to wait for me at the top of the last pass. We hobbled down past Palisade Lakes in the dark and finally found camp near the bottom of the Golden Staircase. Surprisingly I was little better than the previous night, but…
…Day 3 started bad and only got worse. Apparently I had tweaked my ankle significantly the day before but had been too tired to notice. The pain that morning had me seriously thinking about quitting over Bishop Pass. After a long Advil break in Le Conte I decided to press on. Big mistake. The rest of the trip I was pretty much useless as a hiking buddy and only gave Megan greater and greater cause to worry as the condition of the ankle deteriorated.
After another large dose of Advil on Muir Pass, I slowly made my way down to Evolution Meadow. At this point Megan had run out of sunscreen but she refused to accept any help from me let alone a bit of sunblock. As a consequence the blisters on her calves got pretty bad from the sun. She was in a lot of pain but did not want to take any help for fear of being supported.
After camping along the upper-San Joaquin River that night we woke up early to hike the three miles or so down to the Paiute Trail junction. Again I considered hobbling off the trail at Muir Ranch or Vermillion Valley. And again I urged Megan to press on without me. By this time, I think I was getting pretty good at fooling her into thinking I could make it all the way so long as I kept up a steady dose of Advil. So she plied me with her own supply of pain-killers and I agreed to try for Red’s Meadow. This way, at least, I could get a ride much more easily and likely meet Megan at the finish if we separated. That night we camped about 1.5 miles north of Silver Pass.
The subsequent hike into Red’s proceeded according to a pattern of ankle problems that developed the day prior. Wake up – take Advil. Hike 3-4 hours – take more Advil. And so forth until I began to exhaust Megan’s supply and was forced to soak my foot in a creek. Our pace here slowed significantly. Finally we reached Red’s store around 4pm. This allowed me to buy more drugs and some food. Despite my best effort, though, Megan refused to enter and resupply. She was adamant this meant support.
The following morning we awoke at a small pond approximately 2-3 miles south of Johnston Lake. All things considered I was glad to be just a day out of Yosemite. From this point we were just shy of 54 miles from Happy Isles. Megan was vaguely optimistic about getting there in time. We kept at it.
After making steady progress on the approach to Donahue Pass on Day 6, my condition deteriorated. Around 10am my ankle blew-up and I had to stop entirely. At this point, I was finally able to convince Megan to push on without me. After we parted, I sat for a long hour, doubled down on the painkillers and began the limp into Touloumne.
From this point on Megan hiked alone. She pushed past Touloumne, bivouacked around 11am only to wake at 3am to complete the last 13+ miles to Happy Isles.
The point of this narrative is to illustrate how it was possible to receive essentially no tangible help from hiking with another person. Megan was incredibly generous in offering to stay with me; giving me encouragement and all her painkillers. In return, she received no food, no shared pack weight, and no real encouragement. In this case, having company proved deleterious to her FKT attempt. I sincerely believe she could have bested her time by 5—6 hours had I not been there. And, while skeptics can choose to not believe any of these facts, as a rhetorical exercise it nevertheless proves the logic of the point: Accompanied does not necessarily mean supported. Consequently, Peter Bakwin has the best solution – qualify any unsupported hike that was accompanied as such. There is no logical consistency in automatically designating accompanied hikes as “supported,” when the individual receives no assistance, emotional or otherwise. As my experience showed, a hiking partner can prove quite burdensome.
Andy S.
P.S. I too am looking forward to reading Megan's account of the trip. Unfortunately, it seems she's been buried under piles of books, papers and exams since her return.
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Post by Howie Schwartz on Sept 7, 2014 9:16:49 GMT -5
Hi Andy,
Please, call me Howie. I want to first point out that while I do intend to raise potentially controversial questions here, I am asking for an open, honest, respectful, and even friendly discussion. Not waging a hostile attack on anybody here. Put in several days of blood, sweat, chafing, and swelling, and there is likely to be some emotional response to these topics. That aside, I think the game ought to be better defined so that athletes like Megan don't put in so much effort with the outcome of possibly not being acknowledged as hoped.
I do not call into question any of the details of your account, but I do think doubt enters the equation when someone makes claims without verification. That is why it has already been established that those wishing to play the FKT game need to provide standard levels of verification in order to make verified claims. So if you definitely want the credit, then you need to document. Peter has outlined the recommended verification steps to take very well on this site in my opinion. Given the account, I have to say that it sure makes Megan's JMT sound even more impressive than some solo efforts. Having the intent to claim "unsupported" she apparently remained self-contained and self-sufficient (as if she were solo), yet she was prepared and able to take care of another person too. As a mountain guide I particularly respect that. My personal biases aside though, looking at the FKT endeavor as an achievement that people would like to claim and receive credit for, I do not agree that such accompanied attempts should be classified as "unsupported." Regardless of whether you were able to actually provide an advantage psychologically (with companionship or encouragement, etc.), another person's presence along with their extra gear and supplies that they carry does add a margin of safety that other unaccompanied racers do not have. To keep the playing field level I think you have to draw the line, or maybe create a separate category.
I would say that I honestly can't imagine any supported effort any closer to that unsupported line without crossing it as Megan's. I think this is why Peter opted not to say it was supported (clearly not the same sort of effort as other supported efforts), but it is not entirely unsupported either. He lists it as unsupported with an "*". I think that is the best you can do here. If the rules are clarified then people will be less likely to have to work to defend their claims in this race for the FKT. I give full respect for the spirit of Megan's attempt and that she intended to do it in what I personally consider to be the most meaningful and impressive style, one I have been advocating in this thread. This matter aside, I still think there could be better consensus on what the rules should specifically be for supported FKT's, self-supported FKT's, and team vs. solo FKT's. What do you think?
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Post by Ralph Burgess on Sept 7, 2014 11:24:57 GMT -5
I think that it's a fundamental and essential aspect of going unsupported that you brave the wilderness alone. Both physical and mental strength are important. And I don't think that you can change the "category" of the attempt by explaining that the person accompanying did not (in the event) provide any perceived assistance. It would be unfair to the current unsupported FKT holder Michelle Jung for an accompanied effort to take away her record.
However, the trip report does put Megan's remarkable efforts & her character in a different light. Even when no physical support is provided, I think we all appreciate that there's a huge difference between what Megan did and (say) having a person accompanying who is pacing or guiding the route.
I think Peter has done the fair and reasonable thing here. This can't supercede Michelle Jung's record, but it deserves more recognition than just a footnote, so he's noted it among the FKTs at the top of the page in a separate category.
I think having completely rigid rules that are supposed to be applicable to every route and every situation doesn't necessarily work. As we know, pure "unsupported" is only feasible up to a certain distance, hence the "self-supported" category for long thru-hikes. The self-supported concept would be impossible to specify completely with a rigid set of rules, but I think we are guided by precedent, and we generally recognize when somebody is abiding by the spirit of what it's supposed to mean. It occurs to me that another example might be that the pure "unsupported" category is inappropriate in Grizzly country, where nobody should be hiking alone. Perhaps there an "unsupported team" would make more sense there - no outside help or external supplies, self-sufficient within the team.
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Post by Peter Bakwin on Sept 7, 2014 15:32:08 GMT -5
Thank-you Andy S. for posting your story. Personally, the stories are what interest me most about this whole thing! This highlights the fact that solo trips are generally going to be faster than teams. This is especially true on a route like the JMT where it can be hard to bail out.
I personally do NOT subscribe to the notion that unsupported has to mean solo. I think you can have an unsupported team trip, where the team members can pool and exchange gear amongst themselves, share and collaborate on navigation, etc. But, things get really fuzzy if someone stops and the other person continues. Then all of a sudden we are back to "accompanied" (the finisher was "accompanied" part way). Also, if a team is mixed gender things are further muddied simply because separate records are kept for men and women. Nevertheless, if 2 women were to do the JMT in 5 days unsupported I would personally call that a valid unsupported women's FKT for the trail. I know others see this differently. Clearly it would be listed as a team effort, so people can view it however they like. Off hand I can't think of a single instance of this (unsupported team) for any trail. However, several years ago Scott Williamson and Adam Bradley set the thru-hiker (self-supported) PCT record as a team. No one questioned that just because they were a team, and I don't see unsupported as substantially different.
Sounds like Megan could go quite a bit faster on the JMT. Maybe next year???
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Post by Howie Schwartz on Sept 7, 2014 16:44:55 GMT -5
Some great comments there Ralph and Peter! I think that is the kind of discussion that ought to happen. It seems to make sense that unsupported can be either team or solo and let the times land where they may. It will be interesting to see if team efforts are generally faster or slower than solo ones over time. But I also think that it should be established that if a team starts together then they should finish together. If only part of the team is able to finish, then I think we should either call that a failed unsupported attempt at a FKT or categorize it as supported. For mixed gender teams, it seems like you can't specify a women's record for female individuals of a team, so it just would go in the overall category as a team effort. If an all female team sets an unsupported female record then I think that can stand.
I say go for it Megan!
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