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Post by dolface on Aug 20, 2014 11:32:14 GMT -5
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Post by Howie Schwartz on Aug 27, 2014 17:54:23 GMT -5
Hi Peter and everyone here. This FKT site is a great public way to set up the game of documenting record speeds, so thanks for doing that. On the other hand, I think you need to revisit the rules. I get that Killian Jornet as a "crossover athlete" has helped to inspire the concept of taking long distance endurance racing to the mountains, but remember that alpinists have been "racing" up, over, and around mountains and rock walls for centuries. Mountaineers and climbers know: style matters.
You have set the ground rules with 3 acceptable styles: supported, self-supported, and unsupported. I realize that those who keep setting the JMT record would prefer to go unencumbered as though they were racing in an ultra-marathon race, but I have to say that "supported" records are meaningless records. Nothing against the activity as a personally rewarding physical challenge. But as you know, FKT claims are a big deal in this world, and have become a way to gain prestige, fans, and followers, and even appease sponsors. Now that the rewards are tangible, and because I am unbiased as an alpinist versus an ultra-racer, let's call out the overly hyped and dubious distinction of FKT* (*supported) as it may apply to the JMT record, and probably other speed records as well.
If FKT's supported are the game on the JMT, then a record is set not only by the athlete but by the extent of support crew, pacers, and equipment used. Given that the JMT is largely in remote wilderness, this is limited by the amount of available resources and personnel a runner has contributing to their effort. The competition in wilderness should not be set up to encourage increasing the number of people and support infrastructure to gain ever faster times, and this sort of team effort is not what the JMT record should be all about. In alpinism this style of ascent is considered unacceptable by many in the modern era. I understand that ultra marathons are set up this way with aid stations, but that sort of event organization and infrastructure is not allowed in wilderness for some arguably good reasons, and governed by US law. Bottom line for the purposes of FKT's though is: in supported efforts, there are too many variables for people to measure themselves against one another. This invalidates the endeavor as a competitive challenge.
If you want to set up a fair race with support, then it needs to be clearly defined what the support parameters ought to be. Problem is that when you start getting into those details, you take out the purity of the competition. Still, this would be better than pretending that a supported record is a record that means anything inspirational for the future of human potential. Similar to Lance Armstrong's TDF records* or Barry Bonds' home run record* (but without the intentional and unethical breaking of the rules and the lying about it).
To break it down even further with "self-supported" seems even more meaningless to me. This distinction itself seems to actually admit the stylistic flaws of having a support crew and allows to: "put out stashes of supplies for yourself prior to the trip, or you might just use what's out there, such as stores, begging from other trail users, etc." So a self-supported record could be facilitated by doing a very good job supporting yourself in advance with caches. In the wilderness of the JMT, this is against the law. Anywhere else where it would be legal and/or practical, again, the competition is not based entirely on physical and mental athleticism, or even guile and strategy, but on the resources and time in preparation to leave various supplies and aid across the mountains. I hope we can at least agree that for the JMT, this style should be considered unacceptable and strongly discouraged by this community. As for using stores and begging? No, I do not think these can be considered "self-supported" any more than support from a friend in the backcountry that is pre-arranged. I think we agree that unsupported should mean just that - no outside help.
And that brings us to Brett Maune. From reading the relevant thread on this website, it seems largely the consensus that Brett has the confirmed Fastest Known Time (no asterisk) on the JMT. (I assume he did not use the stores or begging from other people on the trail to aid his effort). Not only did he do it unsupported, but he crushed the supported record at the time! This was a visionary achievement in that it shows us all in an unpredictable way what is actually possible. It should get a lot more credit. I love how detractors in this thread have argued the veracity of his record simply on the basis that Brett was unknown in the ultra-racing scene previously. The JMT is not a very good running trail, and most top runners mostly walk it, even if they carry no pack.
Going to the mountains in a self sufficient manner, capable of navigating the mountains and responding in the event of an emergency is our responsibility and is an expression of our wilderness ethic. Killian took a major stylistic hit in his otherwise impressive career when he was under-equipped and had to be rescued from the Aiguille du Midi in Chamonix, France. Brett has set the bar for the JMT and in my opinion should be credited as such. Supported FKT's on the JMT are not even worth documentation, and should maybe be about as newsworthy as a successful climb of Mount Everest. Brett's unsupported JMT record should serve as the gold standard and most highly respected, over faster times in inferior styles. It is the only one that can be measured fairly and objectively, and one that requires considerably more strength, savvy, and mountain experience beyond simply putting one foot in front of the other as fast as humanly possible. If you want that then go set an ultra race course record.
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Post by Peter Bakwin on Aug 27, 2014 20:49:46 GMT -5
Great comments and well thought-out.
I have no intention of trying to set any rules for what people do. Rather, I simply have tried to provide categories (supported, self-supported, unsupported) that reflect what people are already doing. People did trips in all these styles long before I suggested these categories. All are valid - if you don't like supported trips on the JMT that's fine, no worries. I would say it is valid for someone to want to do a trail or route as fast as possible, and the support scheme obviously plays into that. Getting from here to there as fast as possible has always been of interest to some people. Indeed support does add more variables, no question. So anyway, how much "credit" you give to any trip depends on your own values.
I think you misunderstand self-supported. Nearly all (backpacking) trips on the JMT are done in this style - they are resupplied at Reds Meadow, VVR, MTR and other locations. This means self-supported. If you send yourself a box of food at MTR that's self-supported. If you buy a burger at Reds Meadow (as Jim Knight apparently did on his early JMT "unsupported" record) that's technically self-supported. I'm not aware of anyone doing stealth drops all over the Sierra. PCT thru-hikers are generally all "self-supported".
Some trails or routes would be impossible or nearly impossible to do unsupported. For example, the my wife & I ran the 140-mile Kokopelli Trail through the desert of CO and UT in 2004. We had support crew, and that was critical since there is very little water along the route. We were "supported", and did a faster time than our friend Paul Pomeroy who had gone "self-supported", having dropped food and water supplies for himself along the route. For the JMT maybe unsupported makes sense, but for some routes it's not practical.
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Post by Howie Schwartz on Aug 28, 2014 14:05:10 GMT -5
I think it is good for you as administrator and moderator here to remain somewhat objective. I just want to put my opinions out there and see what the people who care about these sorts of records think. People have done things in many ways in the mountains, but you should know that your website appears to be the go to reference for those aspiring to break certain speed records. The breaking of records is in itself a competitive challenge, and competitions need basic rules to have merit. You have included some style categories as acceptable and ignored others at your own discretion, but your rules of the game have been laid down, whether you can admit that or not.
As for the concepts of "supported" or "self-supported" again, I do not take issue with these styles as a form of assisted recreation. I engage in them myself whenever possible. I just think claims of these records should be devalued and put into perspective. There is an undue level of hype surrounding the JMT speed record breaking events of the past few years in a supported style in my opinion. Brett Maune did not receive anywhere near this level of praise or acknowledgment for his feat. I realize this opinion is based on my own value system and my observations, but I think that if the members of the small community of mountain athletes who aspire to break speed records are honest with themselves about it, they might concede that, for the JMT (and probably others as well), unsupported is the only legitimate record for use in competition at this time.
And no, I do not understand how someone cooking and serving you a burger at Reds Meadow can be considered "self-supported." This is as supported as someone cooking and serving a bowl of spaghetti at Piute Creek. I do understand how mailing yourself a package can be considered self-support, but logistically on the JMT, VVR and MTR are significantly out of the way, off of the route. Reds Meadow has to be open when the hiker arrives or before they leave again to use it as a pickup and it is really pretty close to the start/finish anyway.
I do not doubt that some speed records are appropriate for a supported or self-supported style, but to have a valid record there should be some controls set for the amount of support, or the locations of support, or other support variables in order to claim. Otherwise, the prestige of the record is removed and a big part of it becomes a game of support tactics and resources, rather than pure athleticism by an individual. For the JMT record, supported and self-supported should be disregarded, or at least held as inferior subcategories until the rules of the game are established by consensus.
Thanks for posting this perspective and I look forward to hearing other voices of agreement or dissent!
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Post by Young Gun on Aug 28, 2014 15:13:41 GMT -5
Howie, the opinion that supported or self-supported FKT's are not deserving of recognition is your own, and you are entitled to it. However, if I were an athlete capable of rousing a support crew with the desire to complete the trail faster than ever done before, there is no question that I would take that route. It is, without a doubt, the faster method. The idea that it is "less respectable" than an unsupported attempt is completely up to each individual's opinion. Honestly, I find it very hard to compare the two styles, and see no issue with them each standing alone as two completely different animals. If you want to call one "better" than the other, that's up to you.
Brett Maune is an incredible athlete, and no one questions that. Leor Pantilat is as well, and to say that his record deserves zero recognition is simply ludicrous.
Congrats, Leor!
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Post by Howie Schwartz on Aug 28, 2014 18:03:26 GMT -5
Thanks Young Gun. I appreciate your perspective. You may be right that they can each stand separate but equal. For some reason though, the supported style irks me due to the uncontrolled variables of support. I ran support for a JMT record contender a few years back and I saw the effects first hand. Of course the individual running the trail is the primary variable, but the safety, efficiency, recovery, and ability of someone to push onward were all dramatically improved by the outside supporters.
I don't want to come across as saying that supported FKT's are not deserving of recognition - ludicrous I agree. I too congratulate Leor and stand idly in awe of his utter badassedness. I suspect from reading his blog just now that he is probably more psyched on the all out hard and fast multiday mountain effort than on the setting of the record. For that I hold him in high regard. I do want to point out the flaws inherent to this style of competitive endeavor on the JMT (and probably in other places as well). So far I am thinking that unsupported JMT records deserve more recognition than supported records, as the unsupported race is of more pure and therefore superior design (by my judgment). Faster style is not necessarily better style, and the ends do not justify the means.
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Post by Scott Bentz on Aug 28, 2014 18:08:03 GMT -5
My son, Andrew Bentz is in the last leg of his attempt to beat the existing unsupported record set by Brett Maune. Currently he is between Reds Meadow and Island Pass.
I dropped him off at the Portal on Monday night, August 25. I left about 7:30 and he went down by the river to take a nap before getting on the trail.
I got a ping on his Spot at 12:10 which I assume was when he got on the trail. We had set his SPOT to give locations every 30 mins. and when I got up at about 3:30 am I noticed there were no other traces left. We had upgraded the Firmware that day and something was not working. He got a call out when he was at the summit of Whitney and he also knew it was not working. So, he said he has taken pictures at every pass on his Go Pro. I would imagine there is some sort of time stamp.
The next ping we got was at his first stop. He rested for an hour just past the Charlotte Lake turn off before Glenn Pass. The next ping was when he finished the night on the other side of Mather Pass. Whitney, Forester, Glen, Pinchot and Mather all in one day.
The next time we heard from him was when he took a break in Evolution Valley probably around McClure Meadow.The last ping we got was from about 1.5 miles before Vermillion Lake below Silver Pass.
His batteries are low (they were brand new) and I think it may have something to do with why the unit is not working. He just finished the PCT a week ago, hiking it in 90 days with a friend, and they used the SPOT the whole time. We still don't know what is happening.
I got a call from him on his cell somewhere below Mammoth Mountain and he said he would be in Reds Meadow at about 2:00 this afternoon, so I assume he is well on his way to Island Pass and Donahue.
He plans on getting in at 12:00 noon tomorrow IF ALL GOES WELL. We shall see.
I am on my way to Mammoth right now and then over Tioga and into the Valley to hopefully meet him tomorrow.
I will keep this thread updated when I know anything.
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Post by Howie Schwartz on Aug 28, 2014 18:18:20 GMT -5
Awesome Scott! Sounds like Andrew is a real contender. Looking forward to hearing about it!
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Post by Scott Bentz on Aug 29, 2014 22:55:21 GMT -5
I was sitting just past the bridge when he came into sight. He called me last night at 2:38 am as he was getting close to Tuolumne. I was at a friends house in Mammoth. I figured I needed to be at my spot before 10:00 am just to be sure, however, I figured it would have been after 11:00 am. He showed up before 11:00 and said his knee was real bad but had to keep going. I think he got to the sign at about 10:57 and said he wanted to get to the road before 11:00. His watch said 10:59:40.
Andrew was pretty beat up. We walked across the street and sat down below the bridge. Lost a toe nail, bad blisters, etc.
He'll give a report later on. We just got home and I am sure he won't be able to do anything as he is soaking his feet and eating pizza.
He said it was brutal.
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Post by Jenny L on Aug 30, 2014 23:17:55 GMT -5
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Post by Andrew Bentz on Aug 30, 2014 23:20:31 GMT -5
hey guys, i got back from my jmt run yesterday and finished with 3 days 10 hours 59 minutes and 40 seconds to be exact. it was a tough and very worthwhile experience. i am leaving for college literally tomorrow and i will be doing a write up over the next couple days.
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Post by Guest on Sept 2, 2014 13:09:03 GMT -5
In light of recent attempts on the JMT FKT, I feel a distinction should be made between accompanied unsupported and solo unsupported. Lumping the two together seems to unfairly downplay the greater psychological toil that a solo unsupported requires.
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Post by Ralph Burgess on Sept 3, 2014 11:23:57 GMT -5
Check out the definitions in the "Read This First" section - "Unsupported also means unaccompanied"
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Post by Guest on Sept 3, 2014 11:42:10 GMT -5
If that's the case then should Megan Armstrong's recent FKT still be considered unsupported?
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Post by Howie Schwartz on Sept 3, 2014 18:28:54 GMT -5
Anonymous guest makes a good point, one that I did not bring up at first here in an effort to simplify the issue for debate. Although Peter Bakwin does state that unsupported means unaccompanied, his rules on this site do not differentiate between solo and team efforts. By his definition, there cannot be an unsupported record that is also accompanied. I would agree with this. So Megan Armstrong's recent time listed as "unsupported (accompanied)" should instead be listed as supported and is much slower than other supported records posted. You can see that there are varying degrees of support, and therefore no standard by which to cleanly compare supported FKT's. I think we can predict that we are going to see an increasing number of athletes go for the JMT record in the coming seasons. Now would be a good time to set the record straight, so to speak.
As for team efforts - they should not be compared against solo efforts. This site lists Hal Koerner and Mike Wolfe as the previous supported record holders. This is just one more variation on support that confuses the issue on this style of record setting endeavor. The psychological factors that anonymous points out are real, but there are also logistical factors such as sharing weight on SPOT devices and cameras, as well as first aid, water purification, and other emergency items that racers may choose to carry.
This comes back to my original point. Standards need to be set by consensus for the supported race. Until then, the purely unsupported (and solo) record is really the only objective and meaningful version of the FKT on the JMT. Supported JMT records are all tainted by the dreaded *. A nice light and fast day out in the mountains for sure, but no FKT in the truest sense - where the term "fastest" implies an agreed upon and level basis for comparison.
All hail Andrew Bentz, the newly reported (yet unconfirmed??) JMT speed champion!
Absolutely incredible feat, looking forward to reading all about it.
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