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Post by Howie Schwartz on Sept 25, 2017 17:16:58 GMT -5
Right on Peter, I appreciate your perspective. If FKT's are not a race, then what are they? I think this might be a philosophical question worth clarifying. It's not head to head, but neither is the competition for any world record or a course record for any established race. If routes must change by necessity over time then that is a static event where thereafter the competition may change accordingly. And what really is "official?" I think once the result is verified and posted (these days by you on this site) that makes it "de facto" official. Primitive, but nonetheless official, in the absence of a more organized governing entity.
If FKT rules are "here to there," under human power, by any route, then I can very much embrace that, but the way the JMT and some other FKT's have been communicated over time is that there is in fact more to the story. This one follows the John Muir Trail. That is pretty simple. It is a valid standing debate about whether this FKT should start/finish at Whitney Portal or Summit, and I think you have a good solution there by breaking it into 2 distinct FKT's in each direction for now. But nobody is currently debating about whether the Mist Trail is in play, or if one might run from Red's Meadow up to Thousand Island Lake via the PCT versus the JMT, or any other trail or X-C shortcut to get from here to there. Competitors are testing themselves against those that came before, specifically on the 221 miles of the JMT.
And what happens now? Does the next contender have to beat Darcy Piceu's time on the actual route, or could/should they follow her accidental route? When we are getting down to minutes between records, as we did in this case, these details matter more. Not wishing anything unpleasant or disappointing on Darcy here, I just think that if she would be DQ'd in any other race for such a course diversion, why would it be arbitrarily accepted here? I understand that another would-be unsupported JMT record-holder was a mere quarter-mile from the Whitney summit this season due to whiteout conditions and nobody said that was close enough to count.
I recognize that my disinterest in the supported FKT here is somewhat stylistic. If people enjoy and aspire to that version of the FKT, then great. I personally find it to be inauthentic and unsporting. It pretends to be a race between individuals when it is actually a team effort. In this case the team could have done a better job helping to keep the runner on the course. Unsupported FKT attempt performances are pretty straightforward to measure against themselves, while supported ones measure an athlete's performance plus the extent and competence of the support network - a network that is unnecessary for the trip, existing to reduce pack chafing, to avoid the conditioning of muscles that support a pack, and to circumvent the need for mountain sense and self-reliance.
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Post by Peter Bakwin on Sept 25, 2017 18:11:56 GMT -5
A couple comments on John Tidd's non-FKT: -Very much to his credit, John never claimed an FKT. -If John *had* claimed an FKT, even if he had summited Whitney, we'd be having the same discussion because he made a questionable route choice at Red's Meadow, going through the campground instead of staying on the JMT, which I believe stays mainly on the west side of the Middle Fork San Joaquin River through Devil's Postpile. I believe he was off the "official" route for about 2 miles.
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Post by Allen Currano on Sept 26, 2017 0:49:38 GMT -5
Howie, You raise some interesting arguments, which remind me of the old climbing arguments about style and purity of ascent. Climbers used to argue about whether an ascent was valid if the route was rehearsed in advance, if the gear was pre-placed, if the climber "hang-dogged" to work out the moves, etc etc. They still do, I'm sure. There are those who argue the only true, pure ascent is naked, chalkless, barefoot, and free-solo. Perhaps this is the purest style in climbing, and perhaps unsupported is the purest and truest style in which one can do an FKT on the JMT. It is definitely the hardest, and likely the least enjoyable. I've tried and failed more than once, and I can now say with certainty that running a hard 100 miler is far easier in comparison.
But in the end this FKT stuff is all a game, and very little is absolute or black and white. The trail changes from year to year, snow and trail work and re-routing alter the route, people leave the trail to take a dump (or get a resupply) and rejoin it 50 yards or a couple miles later, or cut a switchback or lose the trail and find it later, etc etc. The important thing is that people are honest about reporting what they have done, and in what style they did it. In the end that is all that matters. People will revere and/or judge them, others will someday do it faster and in better style, and the world moves on. Each FKT/attempt/ascent is a stepping stone to the next, and very few, if any are perfectly pure in the strictest sense of the word. Mistakes are made, batteries are scrounged, turns are missed, phone calls are placed, etc. The perfect unsupported FKT is a rare and illusory thing indeed, and in reality may not exist at all.
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Post by Howie Schwartz on Sept 27, 2017 9:16:44 GMT -5
Thanks for indulging me here Allen. Nice to hear your take on this. I raised some similar points on this forum in the past, comparing supported vs unsupported with reference to alpinism. That is primarily my background in this discussion, and though I am familiar with the sport of ultra trail racing, I have never participated in any longer than 50k. In Alpinism, style matters in two regards: to the awarding of status or other public recognition based on the values we place on the ascent, and to the ethics of leaving as little impact as possible on the mountains and therefore the experiences of others. Nobody in climbing worth listening to is arguing that naked and chalkless is the best style of ascent, but there are many other valid stylistic debates that do occur. This is because climbing is meaningful for these folks. Humans are naturally inspired by each other, and are competitive. This is why early in the history of climbing it became competitive. First, it was who got to the top of an unclimbed peak first, then it was who climbed the most difficult route, then it was who did it in the best style, now it is becoming who did it the fastest. (Alex Lowe's disarming quotation is still my favorite: "The best climber in the world is the one having the most fun."). Long before competition in climbing, humans have designed and competed in various sporting events. I struggle to comprehend when I hear in discussions about FKT's, that it is "just a game" after all. The Olympic Games, are games too. Any form of competitive sport or recreation we may choose to pursue or spectate is a game.
For practicality's sake, the JMT does not really change, and if it does slightly get rerouted by trail work or snow cover then this is clearly a different situation than taking an alternate route or making a navigational error. Taking a dump or getting a resupply is fine, but why not continue the route where you left it if you are vying for an FKT? Because it makes it harder? Or slower? Since most of the JMT racers are coming from ultramarthoning these days (particularly the supported version), it is pretty easy to just say if you would DQ in an organized ultra race, then you should DQ here. I am not arguing for any elusive, perfect style. I am saying there ought to be rules for the game. If you want to claim the record, follow the rules. John Tidd apparently smoked the record but he knew the rules were you had to complete the route to get the FKT credit. He didn't claim, and he is not mentioned on the record board. Respect for Mr. Tidd.
The idea that this site is just for reportage of what happened seems disingenuous, as it is obviously a public compilation of athletic records meant to inspire and validate competition. Professional endurance athletes are taking aim at these FKT's (a la Jornet) for their CV's and sponsors are taking notice. I realize this is all nano compared to real pro sports, but even a soccer league for small children has rules and a referee, and for good reasons.
I could go on about the many reasons why I think unsupported FKT's for endeavors like the JMT deserve higher merit and accolade than supported ones, but I came here this time to discuss why Darcy Piceu gets to hold the FKT for the JMT if she went off route to the extent she would have been DQ'd from an ultra marathon. I am not trying to judge, and really don't feel it is my place to do so, but the news and discussion I have heard so far has revealed the following arguments: 1) It wasn't that far off (.6 miles, I believe?), 2) She would have very likely made it to Happy Isles ahead of the record if she would have stayed on the JMT, 3) It was a really impressive and historic effort with many record splits, 4) FKT's are not a head-to-head race, therefore race rules do not apply and we can make up our own, 4) FKT's are a trivial game that doesn't matter, so close enough, 5) Mistakes were made, but she was honest about it, and 6) this site only reports what happened without judgement.
Help me out, does anyone else find these rationales to be unsatisfying?
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Post by Peter Bakwin on Sept 27, 2017 11:47:10 GMT -5
Hi Howie, I also struggle with the questions you raise & find the situation sort of unsatisfying. To a large extent the FKT world is "self policing" - we rely on what people report. If someone fails to use a tracker, or (more commonly) the tracker fails, I don't think they can be DQed for that. In the old days there were no trackers, and we relied on what people reported. Earlier FKT trips may have (probably did) made nav errors that we'll never know about. If it weren't for one (pretty ambiguous) track point & a photo Darcy herself would be oblivious to her route error. All this is completely different from racing. Everyone is trying their best to be open & honest & fair, but it seems it's often not as clear cut as we'd like. We don't want to penalize people for doing trying to do a good job of verification, and we certainly don't want to dis-incentivize trackers. Often I have considered simply removing the list in bold of FKT holders at the top of each thread. Then you'd have to read thru the whole thread to see what people actually did, and each person could decide for themselves what they think "counts". I struggle with this, but haven't removed the bold headings because it will just cause more headaches for me, more time explaining things. Doing my best here. I wanted to create a place where people could engage in the informal competition of FKTs, inspire one another, and most importantly share their stories. I hope I've achieved some of that, and I recognize that the overall situation (rules, requirements, styles, etc) is evolving and often can be nuanced. PB
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Post by Howie Schwartz on Sept 27, 2017 13:20:34 GMT -5
That all sounds reasonable Peter. Perhaps one day it will become more than just you and record times can be more thoroughly verified through facts and consensus. I suppose you could post only record times that are vetted and undisputed and have a sub-list of those that are awaiting verification through consensus or are simply in dispute for potentially valid reasons, but I completely understand if you alone are not ready or willing to administer this project to that degree.
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john
New Member
Posts: 7
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Post by john on Oct 2, 2017 2:08:09 GMT -5
Hi, Posted a trip report and some thoughts on the FKT in FB: better late than never…
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Post by Patrick P on Oct 14, 2017 15:31:54 GMT -5
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Post by Lindsay Hamoudi on Oct 16, 2017 12:49:18 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing. I'm guessing the Start/Finish labels on that tracker are just worded wrongly, but it looks like he's really crushing it out there!
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Post by Djo on Oct 17, 2017 8:04:40 GMT -5
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Post by Julien on Oct 17, 2017 9:02:40 GMT -5
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Post by andrewbentz on Oct 17, 2017 23:08:57 GMT -5
wow, great work francois.
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